God: "The Unbelievable Story" 1st Interview with Nathan

Jul 7, 2011 -

atheism, autism, Christianity, Christians, church, Spiritual Formation, Spiritual growth, Spirituality, Sudden Onset Juvenile Atheism, Theology, theology of disability, Walking with God, worldviews

8 Comments

God: “The Unbelievable Story” (1st Interview with Nathan)

Video’s BACK STORY:

To get an idea of who Nathan is, and how he thinks (a VERY rough estimation) I’ll be posting some video of interviews with him on his thoughts about God, spiritual things, love, truth, Scripture, Christianity, and things that pertain to this delving into his spiritual formation and understanding.

Nathan caught the fish shown in the jar at the lake today. As is sometimes the case, he didn’t want to talk much in general, but through a short series of videos, starting with this one, I hope to flesh out some of his ideas about God, Christianity, the Bible, and what he is like as a person, as his moves to greater maturity.

For a few months he’s had adverse reactions and responses to attending church, to hearing prayer (at home and elsewhere), speaking about God, and the like. What is really going on inside him? I don’t know. Perhaps it is merely pre-adolencent surge of self-expression and independence. Or perhaps, like me and many others, he has to come to terms with God in his own time, and in his own way. As recently as 6 months ago, Nathan claimed to love and believe in the God of the Bible. Now he says that he know longer believes what he did before. Perhaps as I investigate more will come to light.

1st Video (30 sec)

Like all of us, Nathan is a work in progress. My hope is not to compell Nathan to swiftly see things “my way” (your basic Nicene Creed stuff), but rather to engage this perplexing time as a vital part of his growth as a person and a spiritual being made in the image of God…even if that means he goes into some very messy places on the way. Most of us don’t realize just how messy we are.

A few years ago Nathan told me that God’s love was in [him]. I still believe it is. In reality I can’t force him to believe anything. Plus he notices all too well when that is the intension, so it’s incredibility counterproductive to simply debate or convince him.

Part of being a parent is to guide (not command) and be willing to go into challenging territory. This is just that.

I have full confidence in the grace of God (not an angry white, bearded man in the sky, but the Supreme Being of Mercy) to save my son, and meet him where he is, now and for all times.

Nathan has mental challenges, and it is a profound lesson in grace for me to know that my understanding, or lack of understanding about God and reality is not what saves me (or anybody else) from separation from God. I don’t know where this journey will go, or how long I will chronicle it, or discuss it here, but I ask that you join me.

The greater journey here for all of us may involve our own theological concepts that include beliefs, theories, or knowledge of how we come to know God, grace, and move along in spiritual growth/formation. It also raises bigger and more formidable questions like:

• How do the mentally challenged fit (or how well do they fit) into our typical Christian model in the family of God/body of Christ, or a compassionate and healthy society?

• How much do we think our knowledge saves us?

• How do we minister and aid people (of many varieties) in their spiritual understanding and personal growth. And plenty more…

All big questions and I welcome your comments or reflections throughout this process.

SO–What questions would you ask Nathan?

For your own reflection or comment here: What is it about mental disability that may change your ideas of grace/salvation, or put your beliefs, doctrine, or knowledge to the test, if any?

What else is important to explore in this process? (I’m taking input during this process.)

Thanks for your help!
-Lisa

Esmie

Lisa,
I admire the way you are approaching this change in Nathan’s ideology. Coming along side him in his disbelief and exploring this journey together seems to me the wisest approach ever. Smart mom.
I am intrigued.
I too, have contemplated many of the questions you just posed about grace/salvation and the mentally challenged. This hits close to home since I have a sister and a sweet son who are both challenged in this way.
Needless to say, I am sure that grace covers multitudes of disabilities.
I have often thought though, that the mentally challenged have an advantage over those with stronger reasoning abilities in coming to a saving knowledge of their faith. They do not overthink the concept of God. Children with mental disabilities are generally more intuitive for they have had to rely on IQ’s that are innate and not on that organ encased in the hard shell above the neck.
Questions I would pose to Nathan?….
Top of the list would be; what event, idea, or thought(s) changed his view on the existence of a God.
If there was a God, how does he think He should be?
I want to know what Nathan thinks makes a living thing alive. Ask him to observe the fish. What is the fish thinking? What is it feeling? What governs the way it moves? …. Just a few thoughts and approaches…
Thank you for taking us along this journey.
Nathan is adorable. This will be an incredible story and an amazing journey!
http://lisadelay.com lisacolondelay

Thanks, Esmie! This is encouraging to read. I have asked Nathan some of the questions you posed, but I have not understood his answers or he has not given any. His general resistance to engage in the topic is the biggest hurdle. I have put my son’s life in God’s hands, and all my eggs in God’s basket at this point concerning this. I still struggle with knowing how to best approach this, but love, patience, and forbearance is where I try to start and stay with this, until the next chapter comes.

Hopefully, he’ll reveal more soon. I appreciate your insights and your own journey in these matters. Thank you!!
Laurie M

Lisa–

What an interesting–and difficult–story you’re trying to tell here. I, too, will watch with interest and prayer as you question and listen. The teacher in me wants to mention that if you ask “yes/no” questions, you may still get terrific responses (like the ones in today’s video!), but if you ask open-ended questions (like “Where did fish come from? Yes, this fish came from the lake, but where did the very first fish come from? Why do you think that?”), you may get more depth. But you know Nathan, and I don’t, so ignore me if you’ve tried that tactic!
Jack

I’ve been sort of “lurking” on this blog and not really posting anything (my last comment was made in August, in response to your Jennifer Knapp post). However, this post particularly interested me because I myself enjoy talking to and ministering to children.

Ultimately, only God knows what Nathan is thinking. It is important to remember that children have many developmental leassons to learn as they grow. One of the most important is learning about “me/not me” and “same/different.” A baby, from the moment he/she is born, begins to learn these things. First, he learns that his mother’s body is different from his own, and that she is a separate person whom he cannot control, though he can influence her actions in order to meet his needs (by crying when he is hungry, etc.). Throughout the toddler and preschool years, a child will go off to explore the world and form his own identity, but is still lacking in emotional maturity and will turn to parents for emotional comfort. During the school age years, the child continues to form his own ideas about life and about growing, often on his own and out of the blue. He will develop his own ideas about how he can be part of a larger family and yet still be a separate, unique individual.
One of my cousins went through a time when she was around five years old where every toy or book was judged for worthiness on whether or not it appeared to her to be “for babies.” I remember specifically showing her a Children’s Bible or something from a bookstore at the mall, and she responded, “I don’t like those Jesus books.” In spite of this, she was quite amenable in later years to go to church and to learn about Christ.

In the case of my cousin, I think she was “trying out” different ideas to help her develop her own sense of self, of who she was, separate from the ideas that I, her parents, or any other authority figure might suggest. For whatever reason, she got the idea that “Jesus books” were either infantile or totally uncool, and wanted nothing to do with them. As she was just “trying out” this idea, it did not become a part of her lasting disposition.

I see these sort of “trying out” behaviors in the preschool children I work with; a child will make fun of another child, and then I will point out that the second child was hurt by his remarks. The first child will turn around and, with great sincerity, apologize to and ask the other child for forgiveness. Behavior which is naughty is not so much an enduring disposition as it is the child’s attempt to “try this out” and see if it “works.”

Although your son is past the preschool/early childhood stage of development, and the examples I provided may not apply to his case exactly, I suspect that he is still working through his own sense of who he is. I have no idea whether he is “trying out” unbelief just as the children in the examples I gave were “trying out” their own behaviors and ideas, but it is obvious that he is trying to make sense out of the world the best he can at this point. He needs to be part of a family and yet remain a distinct individual from his parents, and his rejection of his parents’ faith may be one way of doing that (I offer this theory humbly, as I could be off-base. You know your son best).

It sounds like you are already handling your son’s apparent unbelief in a thoughful, reasoned, and gentle manner. You, as your son’s mother, probably better know what to ask him than I could suggest. One idea that I would offer (and you may have already done this, for all I know) is to provide your son with another thoughtful adult outside of the family who can also talk with your son and help him work these issues out. Could be a neighbor, a friend of the family, or any other thoughtful believer who could just talk with your son and help him along the way.

A child who is seeking to differentiate himself from his parents/family may feel threatened by what he perceives as their “forcing their worldview” on him (I’m not saying you are doing that, but just that he might perceive it that way. I noticed that he seemed to get annoyed when you simply brought up God in the conversation). To such a child, having another trusted adult whom he respects but who is not necessarily an “authority figure” might allow the child to discuss and develop his thoughts on these issues without feeling threatened.

Above all, Nathan himself is the only one who can determine how much you will be able to probe into his mind and his thoughts. I can recall being that age and having many, many thoughts that I would not necessarily share with even the most trusted adults. If he is experiencing genuine doubt, then it might help to humanize that doubt, to share with him doubts that you may have had about your faith over the years, and how to come to terms with those.

These are just a few of my ideas, and I hope they’re of some value. As for your question regarding God’s mercy to the mentally challenged, etc., I leave you with a quote from Scripture that has comforted me when considering how God will judge a world in which the Gospel has only apparently been proclaimed piecemeal and in a geographically scattershot fashion: “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?”-Genesis 18:25. I am sure that He who desires all to be saved (II Timothy 2:4) will give your son ample opportunity to lay hold of His grace and know the fullness of His love and forgiveness.
http://lisadelay.com lisacolondelay

JACK! Thank you!
What great insights you have, and your thoughts bring up excellent points. I thank you for taking the time to comment here. I agree with your “trying out” sentiment. It’s a normal way to learning about the world, and one’s self in the world. It seems this must be a part of the process Nathan is going through. Nathan does have a trusted (grandfatherly figure) at church, and I think I’ll share some of what Nathan is working through, so his friend can better understand his present responses/struggles. The story continues, so… I’ll be keeping all of you posted!
Doug Jackson

Lisa – I have a grown son whom I love with all my heart and who is a convinced (and often militant) atheist. He reminds me of Nathan, though most people might not spot it: He is so scary-smart that his behavior often falls along the Asperger’s/Autism spectrum. I don’t argue with him – I might not win but that isn’t the point. The point is that he needs sea-room to run before this storm until it brings him to whatever strange but safe haven God has chosen. Scary as hell for a parent, but we serve a reckless, crazy God who would rather people love than simply respond to some divine programming. (And of course, as you basically say) we often mistake our programming for God’s.
http://churchblogmatics.wordpress.com Jeffrey W Roop

Lisa,
I’ll pray that the grace of God will be revealed in profound ways during this time. I know friend’s of mine that are struggling with the doubts expressed by their children. Granted they aren’t as young as Nathan. The question for me is how does doubt play out in the life of faith? Too often we take doubt as the opposite of faith but in reality doubt is part of faith (and often the difficult refining process). Talk of beliefs about God is not enough but matters of trust in God. Keep loving on him so he may see the love of God through you. I’ll continue to pray for you and yours in this time.
Peace,
JWR
http://lisadelay.com lisacolondelay

Thanks, Jeff. You’re quite right about doubt. It’s part of the process toward growth.
Thanks, Doug. Yes, Aslan is not a tame lion.